Water blocks for 4870X2

[Sniper]

Thinking about getting a couple of these for the X2 what do yas think? What else should I get for the ram sinks?

http://img.ncix.com/images/31686_1.jpg

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=31686&vpn=3830046993441&manufacture=EK%20Water%20Blocks

[utnorris]

Looks sweet. Not sure how restrictive it will be. I use a full cover block personally.

[zlojack]

Remember you have to cool the bridge chip too.

I'd be careful about that. Swiftech has a design that uses two waterblocks with a unisink.

I really think full-cover is better.

[utnorris]

If you are even remotely thinking of doing the Swiftech take a look at these first:

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/xsra48fucogp.html

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/aqcoaqforhd41.html

Both are competitively priced with doing 2 GPU's and heatsinks.

[Baleful]

Honestly, I say screw that EK block. It impliments the same great design of their CPU block, only in a smaller package. Guess what, that fails for a GPU, it's way to damn restrictive.

Fullcover is the way to go with these cards man.

[Xilikon]

Honestly, I say screw that EK block. It impliments the same great design of their CPU block, only in a smaller package. Guess what, that fails for a GPU, it's way to damn restrictive.

Fullcover is the way to go with these cards man.

Agreed, especially when you need 2 for the 4870x2. You need to have 2xRD-30 just to push water thru a thin straw.

[Sniper]

I want something different than a full cover block although that Aqua Computer rig looks nice lol. It was more for the look & to try out those blocks than anything really.

[Kayin]

Swifty's got the Caldera block and uni-sink...

[Sniper]

Blech! lol Nah I liked the look of these & they would look sweet on the card is why I wanted to try them out. But without ram coolers they aren't feasable I gues. I could use Enzotech ones though on each one hmm?

[Kayin]

Yup. considering it myself...

[Boyu]

Get a fullcover block for 4870X2, it's much easier to work and much better looking also

[zlojack]

Boyu is right...

The individual blocks for this design of card are a huge PITA!

[Overclocking101]

i second the full cover option

[utnorris]

Swifty's got the Caldera block and uni-sink...

Overpriced piece of crap. Simple as that. The name is upside down, the heat sink channels run top to bottom rather than side to side so they do not allow good airflow across the sink, it cost as much as a EK Nickel block that looks twice as good and performs the same, the heat sink isn't cooled by the water blocks and it still uses the factory back plate for memory on the backside which does not do a good job. I had to add Zalman memory heat sinks to get the heat down to exceptable levels. But damn if Gabe isn't fucking proud of it and so much fucking ass kissing going on the xtreme site over it. If their noses were any farther up his ass they would need a safety line. It use to be when a product got released with obvious flaws the vendor would get an ass chewing, but oh no, not Swiftech, like they walk on fucking water, give me a fucking break.

[zlojack]

Overpriced piece of crap. Simple as that. The name is upside down, the heat sink channels run top to bottom rather than side to side so they do not allow good airflow across the sink, it cost as much as a EK Nickel block that looks twice as good and performs the same, the heat sink isn't cooled by the water blocks and it still uses the factory back plate for memory on the backside which does not do a good job. I had to add Zalman memory heat sinks to get the heat down to exceptable levels. But damn if Gabe isn't fucking proud of it and so much fucking ass kissing going on the xtreme site over it. If their noses were any farther up his ass they would need a safety line. It use to be when a product got released with obvious flaws the vendor would get an ass chewing, but oh no, not Swiftech, like they walk on fucking water, give me a fucking break.
Man...this post has so much truth in it...I can't even start!

I salute you for that.

[utnorris]

I only wish I could say that on xtreme. Just realy pisses me off how Swiftech has gotten to the point where they do not think their shit stinks and how they can charge a premium for their new shit. The HD4870 MCW60 block is another example of how they think they can screw customers over, they didn't even offer a way to upgrade to it if you already had the MCW60, how fucked up is that?

[zlojack]

That's the problem at XS.

If you speak your mind at all, you get slammed by the mods who kowtow to everything the vendors do.

I really haven't been posting much in the LC section there because it's just become a shill-fest.

[Infinity]

they didn't even offer a way to upgrade to it if you already had the MCW60, how fucked up is that?

I always thought they'd release an "upgrade" package for MCW60 users. Ohwell. :|

[Boyu]

Yup, at first time when swiftech announced they gonna make a MCW60-4870 i though it's was a add on module to their regular MCW 60 but it turn out it was a whole packages so i bough full cover WB block that cost almost the same but with better looking design.

[RedRaider]

UTnorris. Great post reaffirming the known truth of Gabes behavior.:clap:

XS had lots of not so well "hidden" agendas. Not many people spend the time to help neophyites anymore. Instead of helping them, people like WaterLogged would rather ridicule them.:shake:

I guarantee you that this forum will in no way/shape/form resemble that crap that goes on at XS. I personnaly won't allow it.

It always seems to be a bumboi vendor/admin/mod/wanna-be modder that slams down peoples throats "I do it like this so you will to.". FUCK that shit. I have something I'll personally shove down their throats.:D

Anyway, rest assured, if Gabe ventures over here no punches will be pulled. This is a forum of TRUTH, a forum where a spade is called a spade. Any manufacturer/vendor who is shady is in for a wake-up call in OUR house. I invite them to come here and allow the TRUTH to set them free.

[Sniper]

UTnorris awesome post indeed! As you see here we aren't the typical Natzi :homo: style like XS we don't Ban you for having an opinion no matter what it is! I got banned for exactly that over there by those Natzi :turd: so it will never happen here.

Your so right about Gabe though he needs to wake up & smell the coffee. He's up on a high horse as of late it seems & it'll just be a matter of time before he's knocked down off it. We'll be sitting here waiting, watching & ready to LOFAO when it happens.

[Eddie3dfx]

I only wish I could say that on xtreme. Just realy pisses me off how Swiftech has gotten to the point where they do not think their shit stinks and how they can charge a premium for their new shit. The HD4870 MCW60 block is another example of how they think they can screw customers over, they didn't even offer a way to upgrade to it if you already had the MCW60, how fucked up is that?

Here is the thing..
Swiftech really cannot be beat price wise for their radiators.. $45-55 for an mcr320 is really the steal of the century.
I personally don't like their coverage blocks at all (I only like Ek and aqua).. or the look of the gtz, but their are certain swiftech parts that are very good, like their radiators or their micro-res.

There is good and bad in everything.

The Ek Single GPU is my favorite of them all. That ek acrylic gpu block is simply stunning.

[utnorris]

I don't disagree that the MCR series rads are great for the money, but that is the old Swiftech. The new Swiftech seems to be taking advantage of buyers. Seriously, no upgrade path on the MCW60 HD4870, so you have to try and sell your old one and then re-buy it with the kit, tell me that is not a slap in the face without at least a reach around. And the Caldera, seriously, $160, seriously, are you fucking kidding me. If it had been around $100, I would have excepted the design flaws, but $160, you better be as good as the competition in the price range, otherwise go back to fucking house. I use like Swiftech and while I still recommend their rads and kits for noobs on a budget, I will not buy another Swiftech item again, especially after some of the responses I have gotten from Gabe.

[RedRaider]

Personally, I don't really plan on ever using Swiftech products. That's just me though, everyone else is free to choose what best fits their individual needs. With that said, I myself have witnessed the poor attitude of Gabe at another Liquid Cooling Forum. I only choose to support manufacturers who actually care about their customers wants and needs, without those customers the manufacturers don't have any money. Without money they go bankrupt. I say, we as a community, support the manufacturers who actually care about helping their customers and actually listen to their customers and attempt to change their product line to reflect what the market demands.

I patiently wait for Gabe to change his attitude.

[zlojack]

Personally, I don't really plan on ever using Swiftech products. That's just me though, everyone else is free to choose what best fits their individual needs. With that said, I myself have witnessed the poor attitude of Gabe at another Liquid Cooling Forum. I only choose to support manufacturers who actually care about their customers wants and needs, without those customers the manufacturers don't have any money. Without money they go bankrupt. I say, we as a community, support the manufacturers who actually care about helping their customers and actually listen to their customers and attempt to change their product line to reflect what the market demands.

I patiently wait for Gabe to change his attitude.

Hear, hear!

[skinnee]

That Swifty Uni-sink is $160??? :eek::eek::eek:

[RedRaider]

That Swifty Uni-sink is $160??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

It's appalling really. Too much for that ugly ass block, IMO. :puke1:

EK FC Nickel-Plated is less expensive and sexier.

[Kayin]

I think FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU is a front-runner here.

Who ever thought we'd say that?

[skinnee]

I'm still in shock over the pricetag for the uni-sink.

[Eddie3dfx]

$160??? Oh good lord is that pricey.
Gabe needs to cut about $40 from that price to make it viable.

[utnorris]

Personally, I don't really plan on ever using Swiftech products. That's just me though, everyone else is free to choose what best fits their individual needs. With that said, I myself have witnessed the poor attitude of Gabe at another Liquid Cooling Forum. I only choose to support manufacturers who actually care about their customers wants and needs, without those customers the manufacturers don't have any money. Without money they go bankrupt. I say, we as a community, support the manufacturers who actually care about helping their customers and actually listen to their customers and attempt to change their product line to reflect what the market demands.

I patiently wait for Gabe to change his attitude.

Amen. Although I think hell will freeze over before that happens.

[skinnee]

The thing isn't $160, not even $60.

http://www.petrastechshop.com/swcafuhefmc.html

[CrazyJoe]

I believe he was referring to the Caldera 4870X2 Waterblock ... seen here - http://www.swiftech.com/products/Caldera-cooling-system.asp ... and it is retailing for $160.00 US

[Sniper]

Imo I've seen NB/SB full cover blocks that cost more & if it works the best out of any other FC VGA block then yes it's worth the asking price but the question is DOES IT?

[skinnee]

Well that makes much more sense...still wouldn't buy it though.

[utnorris]

Plus Skinnee, you would still need to add the MCW60's to that price and at $45 each that would bring it up to $40+$47+$47+$5(screws) = $140. The FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU and DD are in that price range, but you get a full cover block that cools everything with your loop, so no need for a fan and it looks way better and is easier to configure. If you include the XSPC block, well, in my opinion, Gabe was smoking something when he came up with the pricing of this solution.

Also, when I asked about it on the XS thread this was his response:

Gabe - "GPU cooling performance is superior by design to any other full cover on the market, but not better than individual blocks such as the MCW60 or the Fuzion; in fact flow restriction is worse than these solutions, for the reason I explained earlier (the extra 90 degree elbow dictated by inlet/outlet orientation), but this is something full cover owners have accepted as a compromise.

Price is a reflection of the small quantity we made for what I see as a "limited edition". On the other hand, people who like the design and the added performance, and who spend over $500 on a card shouldn't worry that much whether the product is at the high-end of the price spectrum by a few bucks."

After discussing how the logo was upside down, I then responded with this:

Utnorris - "Granted, the the ones with a case where it would be seen is limited, however this is something I stated over two months ago in the original thread. And since this isn't a block that normal people would buy, your words not mine, I would think that more would own a high end case like a MM than not. More and more people are doing horizontal MB trays to show off their equipment, is it more than 5-10%, probably not, but how many are doing a high end water cooling setup compared to a basic setup? At that price it is considered high end, not main stream, not when you can get a XSPC full cover block for under a $100. Therefore the group you would be catering too would want to show off the block and having that big ole name on the side upside down just would not look right. Every one else has placed the name right side up, DD, FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU, EK and even XSPC, so please do not tell me it is not something people care about. Price the item around the XSPC block price and you won't here a peep out of me, put it in the range of the most expensive cooler on the market and you are going to hear me say something about the details such as the logo orientaion, sorry if that offends some."

His response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
And since this isn't a block that normal people would buy, your words not mine,

I am afraid you are misinterpreting my words. I would never use "normality" to qualify different groups of users. So these are not my words. What I said was that people who spend $500 on a card shouldnt mind spending a few more bucks for a high performance block if they like the design. There is neither inference nor reference to normality one way or the other in this sentence, but there is reference to socio economic status.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
I would think that more would own a high end case like a MM than not. More and more people are doing horizontal MB trays to show off their equipment, is it more than 5-10%, probably not, but how many are doing a high end water cooling setup compared to a basic setup?

Someone recently flammed me for using unverified statistics. So be careful about using numbers here, or you might get crushed by vox populis. Good thing you presented it as a question though. Again, I threw the ball back in your court: how many ppl are interested? The inference is if enough, I will do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
At that price it is considered high end, not main stream, not when you can get a XSPC full cover block for under a $100.

What's the MSRP on the XSPC? You can only compare MSRP, not market price.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnorris
Every one else has placed the name right side up, DD, FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU, EK and even XSPC, so please do not tell me it is not something people care about.

I do not wish to make any comments on competition in this context; let's just say that I question the validity of this assertion. Oh, and BTW, all Swiftech GPU water-blocks have the Swiftech logo in the same orientation. No one has ever complained about it.

My response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I am afraid you are misinterpreting my words. I would never use "normality" to qualify different groups of users. So these are not my words. What I said was that people who spend $500 on a card shouldnt mind spending a few more bucks for a high performance block if they like the design. There is neither inference nor reference to normality one way or the other in this sentence, but there is reference to socio economic status.

I interpreted the fact that you stated "people who spend $500 on a card shouldnt mind spending a few more bucks for a high performance block if they like the design" as being along the same lines as people that spend $500 on a video card which is not the norm. Most people are in the price range of the 260 or 4670. Therefore this is considered a high end product by association.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Someone recently flammed me for using unverified statistics. So be careful about using numbers here, or you might get crushed by vox populis. Good thing you presented it as a question though. Again, I threw the ball back in your court: how many ppl are interested? The inference is if enough, I will do it.

I only threw out the numbers in response to ones that were already thrown out and as a question since I do not know the exact figure. But based on yours and other poster's previous responses, MM users would amount to very little. On top of that you threw out the inverted MB tray users as focus group, which like the MM users would not be many. Therefore I would not imagine the number of users of those two segments to be more than 10-15% although as I stated before I do not have the exact numbers and was only throwing it out as a response to someone else's claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
What's the MSRP on the XSPC? You can only compare MSRP, not market price.

When the price of a product is sold by virtually every outlet at that price that becomes the de facto MSRP. Either that or these retailers are taking huge losses on the XSPC full cover block.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
I do not wish to make any comments on competition in this context; let's just say that I question the validity of this assertion. Oh, and BTW, all Swiftech GPU water-blocks have the Swiftech logo in the same orientation. No one has ever complained about it.

Show me one other product in the Swiftech line up that displays the logo that big with lights. The design is obviously there to show off the logo, otherwise why include an LED to display it.

I understand you may not like the criticism of the products price, functionality and cosmetics. In some ways it is a well designed block, however, when EK made blocks without standoffs, they didn't get a free ride based on their past history. When FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU puts out fittings that rust they do not get a free ride. When BP put out fittings with issues they didn't get a free ride. They took the criticism and either redesigned their solutions or took it into consideration for future products. Swiftech is no different. I stated this before, both this and the MCW60 HD4870 block solution could have been set up as an upgrade path for current users of MCW60's and Swiftech chose not to do that and therefore I will not give them a free ride on details that could have been easily fixed early on. It would be different if it was at a lower price point, at which point I would except minor flaws, but being sold at the high end of the market I will not give a free ride to the fact that the logo is upside down, the heat sink channels do not allow air to flow across them nor does the design allow for the water block to help cool the heat sink and it does not allow for current users of the MCW60 to upgrade. Some manufactures post on here when new products are released and except that there will be feedback good and bad, so that they can get access to a niche market, and I don't think anyone would disagree that this is a niche market. Take the criticism constructively and use it or don't. I have always been a Swiftech supporter and have recommended them to others. I started off with Swiftech products, the H2O-120 was my first setup. Then the Apogee GT with a MCR220 and MCW60. I then added a second MCW60 and a second MCR220 for a second loop with a second MCP355. When the GTZ came out, I was one of the few that defended it when it was compared to the D-Tek Fuzion. The reason I liked Swiftech was because of the value to performance ratio and the upgrade path with which Swiftech has always done with their designs, even you mention this. However I consider this and the MCW60 HD4870 a blatant slap in the face to all MCW60 users that cannot upgrade to these solutions because they are not sold as an upgrade path but as a complete solution only and at a price that in my eyes is not competitive with other solutions on the market and with obvious design flaws.

He never responded to this other than asking me what my 24/7 overclocks were on my card, which I told him, but never got a response from him, however, som guy named Mr. Bean decided he would chime in and Gabe resonded to his post:

Gabe:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBean
There would be a very minimal difference having the grooves side->side vs up->down. Use a decent exhaust fan to scavenge, and no worries - the key here is to have positive airflow across the heatsink, watercooling is viewed by to many from a theoretical perspective. It's the same with aircooling and heatsink orientation, if you have a good exhaust system, it doesn't really make a difference of more than 1 or 2 deg C on final temps

In the real world, this is neglible, with absolutely zero impact on overclockability or system performance. .

One very positive aspect of Gabe's design, which is overlooked by the proponents of a "full" waterblock, is that you will get better contact on the components to be cooled. When these cards are manufactured, and components are flow-soldered in the solder-baths, they do not sit 100% flat - meaning, the bigger surface area and ore components, the better the chances for crappy contact.

I will rather have seperate blocks for the GPu's, like in this case, and then something for the rest. Yes, you still need a fan this way, but I'll rather have a fan and waterblocks and get better cooling on ALL the components vs a full block, and the possibility of no contact on some critical component.

The best would be seperate blocks for all components, i.e memory sinks, GPU blocks, mosfet sinks, etc....

IMHO, the full-blocks does a pretty good job, but you will always get better average temps with individual (and properly selected) blocks and heatsinks.

Anyway, just my 2c, but it might be good to look at ViperJohn's attemps and kits he's selling for the NVidia cards - ever wondered why he gone down the path he did cooling his cards?

So yes, Gabe's Caldera and seperate GPU-blocks design will be better than a full-coverage block, and slightly worse than a indivdual component block - all else being equal.

At the end, we have to be thankful that we have 3 options we can exercise.

It's up to you to choose what suits your application best, and what suits your's best, may not necessarily be the best for the next guy.

Enjoy

Start of Gabe's response - Excellent analysis. The trick parts with individual components are the mosfets. Very tiny, and hard to have thermal tape stick due to small surface. That's ppl biggest complaint. Whenever I setup with individual sinks, I use silver epoxy, but ppl don't like that because if takes all kind of tricks to make it so you can remove them in case of need, therefore jeopardizing warranty. It all boils down to convenience. Whenever possible it is good to have specialized sinks that can be fastened to card, like the 8800 and 9800 mosfet sinks that we made for GeForce 8800 and 9800 series, but this was only made possible by the location of the mounting screws on the board. If you have no anchor points, you can't use a bolt on sink, and you are left gluing..

The success of full coverage blocks is a result of a compromise between cooling, convenience, and bling. At Swiftech, we try to emphasize cooling efficiency/capacity where it is most needed versus convenience and bling. The key word here being "emphasize", not set aside..meaning that we don't discard these factors, but rather we prioritize performance over them.

Commercially, I realize that this is a handicap, because we spend more time doing research and design than the other guys, which causes us to be late in shipping, and it is also a handicap because it seems that the majority of users in this particular VGA cooling sector favor bling and convenience versus performance. I understand that the reason is in fact quite simple: if you are not volt-modding, then a few degrees may not matter. This argument in itself should push us towards doing more like the other vendors, but there is one last thing I didn't mention above: we don't like doing like everyone else. Each new project to us is an excuse to exercise creativity and search for new ways to do better. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, but each time we try.

Now, I want you to re-read the part where Mr. Bean states that orientaion of the grooves in air cooling does not matter if you have a good exhaust system. Now, I am not an engineer, but isn't the idea to provide as much surface area for the air to flow across, therefore removing more of the heat? If this is not the case, then why do vendors orientate the fins of their coolers so the air flows across them and not against them? And then for Gabe to say that his design takes longer to develope than a full cover water block, in my opinion is ludicrious. If anything, developing a waterblock that is not restrictive but cools the entire card would seem to be harder to develope than a setup where you use rehashed blocks and ideas to create a cooling solution.

I know this is a long post, but I wanted everyone to read and understand the mindset that Swiftech has become essentially placing themselves above other vendors as the defacto experts when it comes to water cooling. Someone has moved into the Ivory Palace and setup shop. I could go on and on about the design flaws in this solution and the arrogance that I have seen from Gabe and Swiftech, which is sad in itself since I use to regard them both so highly for their quality, prife/performance and their humbleness. I guess those days are gone.

[Sniper]

I like some of his products(very few but own a couple) & I would buy a FUFUFUFUFUFUFUFU FC block before I ever considered this put it that way.

[utnorris]

Well looks like Jab-tech thinks the $160 price is too much to ask for the Caldera, they have it listed at $140. So if you are bent on getting this, at least you can save a few bucks getting it from Jab-tech.com.

[RedRaider]

Why even stock something that no one wants? :rofl:

[Septim]

norris thats a nice discussion you had with gabe, not bad, from his point of view that is, he takes your criticism and builds on it for later use... (marketing which consumer group are likely to buy this stuff and defending said research even if he knows its partially faulty...)

maybe we'll see an upgrade path for the mcw60, mix and match partner sinks, or not...

And probably time and new block designs will tell if he did take your opinions to good use...