Fans for a horizontal application

[zlojack]

I am thinking about designs for a new case to tame i7.

Things are still at the very preliminary planning stage as I haven't even finished my current rig.

But one thing I was thinking about is using fans in a horizontal position, which I've read is not good for the fans.

I am looking at the Scythe Ultra Kaze 3000 RPM fan which I can undervolt for fairly silent running (I have one here that I've tested and it gets pretty quiet at 7ish volts).

Would those fans do alright in a horizontal position?

[bigslappy]

ball bearing fans only

sleeve bearing fans need the centrifugal force to keep the axis shaft off the shaft bearings(the axle floats soo to speak) & can only do that in a vertical position , when at horiz then the thin edge of the sleeve fan bearing takes all the weight

same thing with the Iwaki pumps you CAN run them horizi but it GREATLY reduces the bearing life & that reduces both fan life & pump life ... END of Story .........

[zlojack]

So what's a decent ball bearing fan that's going to push a good amount of air to use in a horizontal pull config exhausting out the floor of a case?

EDIT: I suppose the San Aces are my best bet.

Problem is...where the fuck can I get them?

[zlojack]

I guess I could just go with the FDB fans I already have. Just use more of them.

[iandh]

FDB's are good, if you want a yate loon cheapness level fan that is still good, get some Lian Li ADDA BB fans on ebay or something... I was using them on an MCR320 for some time and they performed quite nicely.

Or you could have picked up ten san aces for $31.00 shipped from that crazy ebay auction like I did... :moon:
:D

[zlojack]

FDB's are good, if you want a yate loon cheapness level fan that is still good, get some Lian Li ADDA BB fans on ebay or something... I was using them on an MCR320 for some time and they performed quite nicely.

Or you could have picked up ten san aces for $31.00 shipped from that crazy ebay auction like I did... :moon:
:D
I missed that auction.

Since I already have a bunch of the FDB fans, I think I'll stick with those.

They work pretty well and are pretty good for noise/temps.

[bigslappy]

missed the san aces on Ebay also
bummer

[Ricey]

zlojack,

PM me if you like to know about my alternate views and preferences. I don't follow the San Ace flock. Baaaaa Moooooo.

[RedRaider]

Post it in the forum Ricey, allow others to read your suggestion.

[zlojack]

I figure with SFF21Gs things should stay pretty cool and I'll get a good balance of silence as well. If I don't get enough, I could add push/pull to help.

[Ricey]

No thanks.

[Baleful]

Well, I might be pelted for this, but I don't give a fuck.

Not many people use these because they look kinda funky, but I always loved my Sharkoons (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=20832) when I had em. I don't use them any more simply because they cost a little more than I was willing to spend, but if money isn't an issue, I always liked these over the San Aces.

FYI I use a combo of fans:

YateLoon Highs on my Rads and exauhst.
Panaflos on my MCR.

Also, you may want to consider Pabst fans (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=Pabst), IMO they beat out San Aces.

EDIT: In my experience, I've never had a problem running fans horizontal. The two YL Highs I have exhausting air out the top of the case have been running fine for 2 years now with 0 maint.

[Ricey]

I'm tired of fighting the entrenched mentality driven by the hordes. To criticize any widely conceived notions is like salmon swimming upstream against sharks.

Some esteemed "gurus" have already mentioned that San Aces are the best, so they must be the best.

No such interest in publicly stating preferences.

Baleful FTW

[zlojack]

So if I want 38mm I might have to look at the Papst, otherwise I'll stick with my S-Flex fans.

Thanks to everyone for your input!

[Baleful]

Yeah Jack. For 38mm you can't beat Pabst or Panaflo's. San Aces are over hyped and over priced IMO.

[zlojack]

Alright, I'll keep that in mind.

[Kayin]

I use Panaflos for 38mm fans too.

Never found anything that made me wanna switch.

[Ricey]

Forget about the price. The issue is that they may not be the best. Period. Factor in the price and the equation changes. There are quite a number of even more expensive fans.

[Xilikon]

Another vote for Papst or Panaflo fans, they are the best in the 38mm dept. For 25mm ones, S-Flex series is hard to beat ;)

You must use ball or FDB bearing in horizontal position.

[RedRaider]

Nothing wrong with SanAce H1011 fans. Sounds like the ones bashing them here, have no experience with them.

[bigslappy]

what are the advantages of the San Aces ? , as yer Right RR I know nothing about them but the high flow & soo called noise factor . Not to mention the high cost on some vendors sites . All I know is what has been reported & would like to Know from people who have them ,on how they are better than say the Y/L's ,any under volting problems ?, do you need a controller ?,do they draw alot of watts ? Is sleeving a problem ?

[RedRaider]

what are the advantages of the San Aces ? , as yer Right RR I know nothing about them but the high flow & soo called noise factor . Not to mention the high cost on some vendors sites . All I know is what has been reported & would like to Know from people who have them ,on how they are better than say the Y/L's ,any under volting problems ?, do you need a controller ?,do they draw alot of watts ? Is sleeving a problem ?

There have tests done Slappy...

Are you serious with that group of questions at the end of your post???

Are they better than YL's? :ROTF: Lots of fans are better than YL's...

Undervolting problems??? Only heard of a few people complain. Did those people have this model 109R1212H1011 ??

Do you need a contoller?? :ROTF: Any fan you want to control the RPM of requires a contoller of some sort...

They draw 0.52A, should speak loads about the quality of their electric motors...

Is sleeving a problem?? Only if you don't know how to sleeve...

Any 38mm High Speed fan will be noisy at 12V...

BTW, I'd rather use YL mediums than Slipstreams, you should have bought S-Flex...

Try not to follow the "herd" in bashing a product you know nothing about...

[mcoffey]

San Ace fans are the most over rated fans in the history of LC IMO. I've got ribbed and un-ribbed versions, both new and NOS. They are without a doubt the most obnoxious fans I've ever used under volted.

Performance wise, top of the heap, but not a fan for the noise conscience builders out there. I can't imagine a build with all SA fans. All it would take is about 2 days before I'd crack down on a rig with a 12 Ga pump if I had to sit next to one. I couldn't fuckin take it with any of the ones I've got. Even Vapor, the one who started the whole SA craze over on XS admited he fucked up by recommending for 24/7 use on a rig.

I know fan noise is very subjective, and some folks swear by them, but for the life of my I can't understand why if silence is a requirement for the rig your building. At 25 per fan, it's goddamn robbery as far as I'm concerned.

All my opinion mind you, and gl to the ones who love them, but i have some and I'll sell um for exactly what I paid for them.

andyc

[Ricey]

Andy,

You use the Zalman ZM-F3 with the resistor. I'm told that they are still 40+ cfm with the resistor and are zippo silent. Is that true?

[bigslappy]

Yeah i was serious as i don't know Or i would not have asked ..
as i'm not any where near an Knowledgeable person when it comes to fans & correct usage :confused:

& i can upgrade them at any time in the future , when money is more at hand.

as for the slipstreams .......
money was an issue when buying 16 of them ..
as was the 25mm VS the 38mm size factor ...

.plus that fact that the slipstreams SY1225sl12sh move 110 cfm @ 37dBa

& the S-Flex SFF21G's move 75 cfm @ 35dBa...

both fans running @ 1,900rpm

all most 28% more air flow for another 2 dBa of sound @ less of a price & size factor

and Gary & me went over the advantages of fans together & he said that was the best bang for my buck ..

He's a GREAT VENDOR ,you can ask a question & he treats you well & tells you the pros & cons of each question about his products

I will continue to use Gary exclusively

[iandh]

I'm tired of fighting the entrenched mentality driven by the hordes. To criticize any widely conceived notions is like salmon swimming upstream against sharks.

Some esteemed "gurus" have already mentioned that San Aces are the best, so they must be the best.

No such interest in publicly stating preferences.

Baleful FTW

I've noticed you have a bit of an "anti-establishment" thing going. I don't necessarily mind that, because thinking outside the box is a good thing. I DO however, respect hard numbers that are gained through proper testing, because they actually mean something, unlike opinions and empirical data.

User experience is good for measuring the tone of a fan to see whether it is "annoying" like I find the San Aces to be, but it doesn't do shit for getting a hard static pressure measurement.

Well, I might be pelted for this, but I don't give a fuck.

Not many people use these because they look kinda funky, but I always loved my Sharkoons (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=20832) when I had em. I don't use them any more simply because they cost a little more than I was willing to spend, but if money isn't an issue, I always liked these over the San Aces.

FYI I use a combo of fans:

YateLoon Highs on my Rads and exauhst.
Panaflos on my MCR.

Also, you may want to consider Pabst fans (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=Pabst), IMO they beat out San Aces.

EDIT: In my experience, I've never had a problem running fans horizontal. The two YL Highs I have exhausting air out the top of the case have been running fine for 2 years now with 0 maint.

Golf balls are great fans, I've used them before. Their blade noise is a bit high pitched for my taste but they are still very quiet.



San Ace fans are the most over rated fans in the history of LC IMO. I've got ribbed and un-ribbed versions, both new and NOS. They are without a doubt the most obnoxious fans I've ever used under volted.

Performance wise, top of the heap, but not a fan for the noise conscience builders out there. I can't imagine a build with all SA fans. All it would take is about 2 days before I'd crack down on a rig with a 12 Ga pump if I had to sit next to one. I couldn't fuckin take it with any of the ones I've got. Even Vapor, the one who started the whole SA craze over on XS admited he fucked up by recommending for 24/7 use on a rig.

I know fan noise is very subjective, and some folks swear by them, but for the life of my I can't understand why if silence is a requirement for the rig your building. At 25 per fan, it's goddamn robbery as far as I'm concerned.

All my opinion mind you, and gl to the ones who love them, but i have some and I'll sell um for exactly what I paid for them.

andyc

I am also a silence freak, so if I am building a quiet rig it will most likely get yates, Nexii, Zalmans, or FDB's. San aces are tolerable at 5v but just barely.

The San Aces have the highest measured static pressure of any 120x38 12vdc fan that I know of. It isn't a herd mentality thing, the fans just walk the walk. They are just the best performing fan for radiator usage known atm, period. If someone else would like to dig up a fan that performs better, then more power to them. Not once have I ever thought they were the best fan all around, due to their motor noise, power draw, and price.

I've done side by side comparisons of San Aces with yates, panaflo's, and FDB's, and frankly the efficiency of the San Ace's blade design is downright disturbing. From what I've read, a LOT of time and money was spent in the development of those fans, and it shows in their performance.

But the motors are pretty noisy... too noisy for most of what I do.

They are robbery at $25 per fan, but IMO so are the Scythes at $15. So are the nexii at $15. However at $3 a fan, what I paid, the San Aces are the second coming of Jesus.



Keep in mind folks, an anti-herd mentality is a herd mentality of its' own. ;)

[Ricey]

You guys don't flatter yourselves. There are $55 Papst fans out there. Yes, 12V and 119 mm.

Sanyo Denkis are neither the most expensive, the best nor the highest static pressure. The sound level ratings are highly optimistic. I have witnessed for myself.

The uniform strategy of the crowd is to insult. Anything that they own that others criticize, then it must be that the others don't know anything and are newbies. It debases the concept of common decency.

Yes, I have owned one San Ace 1011 before. Just one. Just to try.

It seems counterintuitive to get a high speed fan of any brand if what you desire is low noise.

[iandh]

You guys don't flatter yourselves. There are $55 Papst fans out there. Yes, 12V and 119 mm.

Sanyo Denkis are neither the most expensive, the best nor the highest static pressure. The sound level ratings are highly optimistic. I have witnessed for myself.

The uniform strategy of the crowd is to insult. Anything that they own that others criticize, then it must be that the others don't know anything and are newbies. It debases the concept of common decency.

Yes, I have owned one San Ace 1011 before. Just one. Just to try.

It seems counterintuitive to get a high speed fan of any brand if what you desire is low noise.

Your uniform strategy seems to be insulting the crowd.



If you want to call out someone else's numbers, then you need numbers of your own to back it up... until then it is just another opinion. This isn't just in this hobby, this applies to everything mankind has ever done since the adoption of the scientific method.



edit: BTW, I know that there are fans even pricier than the San Aces and some papst. The comair-rotrons we use for our electronics cabinets at work are nearly $100 a pop. The set on our demo machine has been running 24/7 for TEN YEARS... since I started at my current job.

[mcoffey]

I don't doubt for a second they are one of the best performing fans out there right now as far as moving air thru a rad, or anything else for that matter. I'm just sort of peaved about all the reports on how quiet they run undervolted, because I don't believe it's true. I've heard to many others I trust saying just the opposite, so I guess my ears still work.

Like I said before, the one who pretty much started the myth about undervolted SA's running quiet has reputed it, and I commend them for it. So yeah, you want a top performing fan that will offer excellent results on LC performance, buy all you can. But if your looking for a fan that moves enough air thru a rad to get the performance you want while offering good acoustic performance, don't fall for that "they run quiet on 5-7 volts" because that's pure bullshit based on my experience.

that's my take on the fan noise subject subjectivity issue regarding San Ace fans:D

andyc

[iandh]

I don't doubt for a second they are one of the best performing fans out there right now as far as moving air thru a rad, or anything else for that matter. I'm just sort of peaved about all the reports on how quiet they run undervolted, because I don't believe it's true. I've heard to many others I trust saying just the opposite, so I guess my ears still work.

Like I said before, the one who pretty much started the myth about undervolted SA's running quiet has reputed it, and I commend them for it. So yeah, you want a top performing fan that will offer excellent results on LC performance, buy all you can. But if your looking for a fan that moves enough air thru a rad to get the performance you want while offering good acoustic performance, don't fall for that "they run quiet on 5-7 volts" because that's pure bullshit based on my experience.

that's my take on the fan noise subject subjectivity issue regarding San Ace fans:D

andyc

I'll put it this way... my first experience with San Aces noise wise was massively underwhelming.

Everyone talked about how quiet they were undervolted, and I got them on an GTX240 @ 5v and I still was like, "Damn, these things sound like a fucking coffee grinder". I sold them shortly thereafter.

As I mentioned before though, the amount of air they push through a restrictive rad is downright disturbing compared to other fans I've tried.

TBH I purchased the ten for a special project, not for personal use. I can't relate to how some people use screamers like the KAZE's either. :rolleyes:

[Kayin]

Just to interject logic here, but isn't this argument moot, because the bearings in these fans do not support horizontal usage?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was the OP's question.

It's also one I'd love an answer to, though I suspect very little short of armageddon would stop me from using my ADDAs and CM fans.

[mcoffey]

Andy,

You use the Zalman ZM-F3 with the resistor. I'm told that they are still 40+ cfm with the resistor and are zippo silent. Is that true?

They move a good bit of air offering great performance and dead nuts quiet while on the resistor. I'm not sure of the actaul CFM numbers because I don't have the gear to test that.

But that's the way I ran them on my bench, with the resistor, and they were superb fans offering the best noise to CFM value I've ever experienced. I had 6 of them spinning sitting right next to me for 6 months while on my bench. I really never noticed them. That's why I chose them for my rad box. 12 of them little beasts spinning on my CF fan controller at 1000 RPM (which is a pure PWM controller from what I've been able to read), and I couldn't ask for more out of a fan. No mechanical noise, rattles, ticks, squealing or any other extranneous noise that I can notice. They are however mounted to the acrylic panel with the Noise Isolator 120 millimeter Fan Vibration Dampener (minus the washers and screws) kit i bought from Gary over at Sidewinders. I wasn't sure how 12 of them were going to act mounted on a acrylic panel. I'd never done anything before with acrylic panels, so I was a littel leary about fan vibration noise, so I used the silicon gasket just to be safe. But I ran them on a open air bench on exposed rad with the same results. Even my wife was floored when she came in the room when I first turned up the rig. She couldn't believe my rig (all mid speed YL's in the main case, but that's about to change also) with 20 fans spinning make's less noise than here stock Dell downstairs. And that girls got ears like a freakin bat.

You can feel the amount of air blowing out the rad box at 1K RPM, and it's considerable. The resistor is just another added benifit and value too. Only fan I know of right out of the box that can be undervolted without some controller or the PSU cross wiring trick which I never use.

That's probably best review I could give using CPU temps as a gauge for fan performance, and a pair of ears as it relate to silence. At $9.00, pick one up and see what you think. I'd be interested in hearing someone elses in depth experience also. Fan noise is so subjective sometimes, it's really hard to say what works for people. So the more experiences we hear about any given fan, the better informed we all can be IMO.

Hope this helps,

andyc

[iandh]

Just to interject logic here, but isn't this argument moot, because the bearings in these fans do not support horizontal usage?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was the OP's question.

It's also one I'd love an answer to, though I suspect very little short of armageddon would stop me from using my ADDAs and CM fans.

I actually recommended them because they are ball bearing (at least the 1011's afaik)


I also am a big fan of the ADDA's (pun?)

snip

In summary, they are excellent fans.

I like the Zalmans quite a bit as well.






Another to throw into the mix is the Arctic cooling fans, I am 99% sure they share plastics with the scythes, have FDB's, and also happen to have 4-pin PWM control capability. They are about $5 cheaper than the Scythes last time I looked.

[mcoffey]

Just to interject logic here, but isn't this argument moot, because the bearings in these fans do not support horizontal usage?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was the OP's question.

It's also one I'd love an answer to, though I suspect very little short of armageddon would stop me from using my ADDAs and CM fans.

Which fans?

andyc

[Kayin]

The San Aces, but my question was answered.

Nothing to see here, I'll just go back to this HDD swap.

[RedRaider]

SanAce H1011 fans are fine for horizontal, whereas Yate Loon's (and their cheap ass bearings) are not....:fact:

You can't even store the Yate Loon's in a horizontal position without damaging them...:rofl:

[Kayin]

Learn something every day.

[zlojack]

I think I'll probably end up using the FDB fans for this application.

But I appreciate the honest opinions and discussions.

[RedRaider]

Does anyone have these fans ??? Panaflo 120x38mm Medium Speed FBA12G12M1BX by NMB-MAT (http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/pa12mesp.html)

Do they undervolt well ?? IIRC, Vapor claimed they click when undervolted...:hmm:

[Ricey]

There's more to reality than data and numbers.

Someone who disagrees isn't necessarily outside the sphere of knowledge, and its nonsense to imply that somebody who isn't in the engineering professional or some technical sector isn't in the know and therefore isn't qualified to have an opinion.

I'm anti-establishment for the simple reason that I don't trust the establishment and I doubt its sincerity and integrity.

[Ricey]

Its again nonsense to buy high speed fans when a person desires silence. Panaflo Quiet fans are pretty darn quiet at 30 dB and still blow a good 68+ cfm.

[RedRaider]

There's more to reality than data and numbers.

Someone who disagrees isn't necessarily outside the sphere of knowledge, and its nonsense to imply that somebody who isn't in the engineering professional or some technical sector isn't in the know and therefore isn't qualified to have an opinion.

Its again nonsense to buy high speed fans when a person desires silence. Panaflo Quiet fans are pretty darn quiet at 30 dB and still blow a good 68+ cfm.

I asked a question that you failed to answer in either of your posts....

Do they click at 5V ??

[Kayin]

Mine doesn't. It was beautiful at that point, you never heard it.

[Ricey]

I asked a question that you failed to answer in either of your posts....

Do they click at 5V ??


Don't Know what you mean... don't believe in using knob controlled rheostats....

I have used a resistor and they do well at 7V and 5V. No noise whatsoever.

The Vapor statement is nonsense, unless he used a Sunbeam or whatever POS knob controller, in which case I can't comment.

I match fans to my needs. I run my fans at 12V.

[RedRaider]

Didn't ask you what you used, I asked a specific question didn't I...

If you cant answer it, then why type a bunch of garbage spam??

[Ricey]

I did say that they don't click, didn't I ?

[RedRaider]

Your answer was laden with pointless rhetoric, which IMO is counterproductive.

[Ricey]

Snip.... At $9.00, pick one up and see what you think. I'd be interested in hearing someone elses in depth experience also... Snip

Andy,

Thanks very much for the in-depth review.

Indeed, I'm going to order one to try.

Thanks,

Ian

[iandh]

Andy,

Thanks very much for the in-depth review.

Indeed, I'm going to order one to try.

Thanks,

Ian

Oh god, your name is Ian too?

No wonder we're butting heads.

[Kayin]

It does matter what he used, rheostat vs resistor vs pwm will all make different sounds, and PWM is MUCH more likely to click.

[Eternalightwith]

Not to mention the fan controllers in general, suck.
Looking at the elctronics..... :o
Personally I think it's like using a PSU that came with your case.
You're just asking for it. :moon:

Don't be lazy and just use a resistor or plop down the dough and get a good analog controller. :D



It does matter what he used, rheostat vs resistor vs pwm will all make different sounds, and PWM is MUCH more likely to click.

[zlojack]

Not to mention the fan controllers in general, suck.
Looking at the elctronics..... :o
Personally I think it's like using a PSU that came with your case.
You're just asking for it. :moon:

Don't be lazy and just use a resistor or plop down the dough and get a good analog controller. :D
What's a good analog controller?